Marcelino Sambé 2024

Marcelino Sambé

Principal, The Royal Ballet

Interviewed by David Bain
American International Church, Mon 16 Dec, 2024

Marcelino arrived almost on time, having gone initially to the wrong church! He began by telling us about Cinderella which he performed with Anna Rose O'Sullivan. It's a beautiful role for the girl with so much history but he didn't think much about the prince so initially he wasn't super excited. He did his research, watched Michael Soames and Anthony Dowell footage with Lesley Collier and Antoinette Sibley and thought there was something quite human about the character, which is quite beautiful and charming, unlike Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty where there seems to be something wrong in the prince's life. In this role it seems as if he's coming to his own party and showing his best face and Marcie thought he could be a happy prince for a change. In the studio watching Darcey Bussell with Anna Rose he saw the typical intricate Ashton style which is so classical. In Act II she is wearing a tutu and yet she's still the same young lady from Act I hoping and dreaming she'll get out of her situation. Anna Rose is good at being natural and genuinely herself so when they began rehearsing, especially with the score, he completely he fell in love with another Ashton masterpiece. In fact, Marcie said he's never done an Ashton which he hasn't loved. He and Anna Rose were in the same year at school and were partnered very young, and she was the first girl he did a pirouette with when he came to England. They have always had a deep connection. She is proportionally fantastic, on a smaller scale like Lesley Collier and other dancers from the 70s and 80s which seems to fit the Royal Ballet rep. She is a joy to work with, incredibly natural and kind, always very polite and sweet. They are both ambitious but in different ways and he's learned from her graciousness and delicacy. Anna Rose has worked so hard on what is a very difficult role for the ballerina and really clicks with the movement. He just sat in the front, watching the fantastic monologues in Acts I and III. In their show, the stepsisters were Benn Gartside and James Hay. Marcie saw his first pantomime only five years ago and was quite perplexed but intrigued at the same time. He loved the dame and characterisation which is where Ashton's sisters came from to further his story telling. He thinks it's funnier when they look butch, manly and rough around the edges while trying so hard to fit into this world, like the pantomime dame. When he saw Benn and James rehearsing, he really felt they had come into their own and the roles were in safe hands with their comic timing which is important, otherwise it can fall flat. Marcie was injured when he should have debuted the last time, so this is his first. Asked if he would like to be a stepsister Marcie said he likes all the Ashton second roles, like Alain, which are so well crafted that you don't feel you're getting second billing, and you can have a great time on stage and connect with the audience which is the dancers' job. His friends talked about the jester, sisters and Napoleon as well as Anna Rose and him doing their beautiful pieces. It's all about the whole company.

Marcie made a piece for the recent Draft Works. He began creating in Portugal through his very inspiring teacher. He would stay after class for improvisation, and they would explore ideas for hours, not to achieve a goal but to see what he would like to do. He always wanted to be a creator and made some pieces which went to competition. He also did works at the Royal Ballet School, but for Draft Works you have to ask incredibly busy dancers to do it in their spare time or stay after a hectic day of rehearsal for the development of the art. He has so many ideas he wants to develop. He read a book about Lilith, an obscure mythological creature who's been written about in different ways, most recently as a dangerous and seductive woman, with a will of her own, possibly very bad luck symbol. In Genesis I there were two figures created from dust, and this was Adam and another figure. He wondered if that could be Lilith. Some people believe she was originally in the Garden of Eden which he found interesting and decided to dig deeper. Why did she leave Eden? In Genesis II it was said only Adam was created till Eve came from his rib. He thought this could be an interesting story, what was a dynamic of this trio? For Marcie, Adam could only be Matthew Ball, who is such an inspiration, so talented, hardworking and generous with his time. Then he looked at the girls and wanted the two youngest members of the company. He had worked with Viola Pantusa in Alice, she is a very exciting talent, and has a darkness about her which is unique, almost sensual and very strong, and he thought of her as Lilith. Then for Eve he thought of Rebecca Myles Stewart, very beautiful and joined the company a few months ago, really quiet but very talented and strong with great technique. The first time they went to the studio the girls were looking in awe at Matt which was just what Marcie was looking for. They venerate the image of Adam who is a depiction of God the creator and the girls experiencing this connection through him. He really enjoyed it as he hadn't choreographed for four years since Othello's Limb. He also wanted to work with pointe shoes and ballet material rather than contemporary movement. He believes he knows more about ballet which is his daily work so decided to focus on that and post modernism. Sometimes you're asked for music three years beforehand and then have to stick with it even if it doesn't work. He chose four symphonies, beginning with Nielsen, then Stravinsky, then Schoenberg, but he needed a new mood when the ballerina came on so chose Webern. Music is very important, and he likes atonal aspects. Since doing Different Drummer last season and dancing to Webern he felt a deep connection to his music and most played in his library of music. Spotify told him his number one artist was Schoenberg! It's very difficult to decide as there's such a choice but once chosen you have to stick with it. He had to ask dancers to come in on weekends. Most people do a five-minute piece, but he felt with such a strong theme it warranted fifteen minutes. It was very tough, and Matt was lifting the women like pieces of paper but with atonal music you don't get regular counts so have to learn the eccentric music. At the same time Marcie was doing Alice, Pam Tanowitz and MaddAddam so in between his rehearsals he had to grab them for any spare minutes. He had a dramaturg, Uzma Hameed who works with Wayne, who is very talented and generous. He told her what he wanted to do, and she queried the idea of touching on religious themes. He explained he was putting questions rather than rewriting history. She helped with Matt, who is very tall and strong, and two tiny girls which could have looked violent or mismatched. He wanted Viola to be in charge of Eden so she had to have power, but she mustn't look abused. Difficult with the times we inhabit we have to be aware of everyone who is coming to watch. You still have to be brave. Initially looking at it as an audience member he had a freak out moment. He had a meeting with Uzma and made so many changes the day of performance. He'd done so much research and the dancers gave so much that he felt the responsibility. After all, Merce Cunningham would change things an hour before as well. The audience is very important – he loves dancing and creating but audience response and support is the most wonderful thing about being an artist. It gave him additional respect for choreographers like Wayne. He hopes it will be in International Draft Works and perhaps there'll be the chance to extend and refine it, maybe re-costume and get better lighting. The Ballet Association gives money to Draft Works or International Draft Works, which is Kevin's decision, for which Marcie expressed his gratitude. He said he'll hear a piece of music and then spend the evening choreographing in his head and finds creating a de-stresser. He has so many ideas to explore but there's insufficient time.

Maddaddam. Marcie has worked with Wayne many times but recently he sees such development in his interest in how to work with classical dancers and take them to unchartered territory. It's very brave as he's exposing a new shape of what ballet can look like. In the Royal Ballet we will always see classics but it's nice the next time you are seeing the forward-thinking ideas that are very complex. He read one book and wondered how Wayne was inspired with such complex plotting and so many characters. Margaret Attwood loves dystopia and what will happen to humans when we no longer have social structures, and Wayne did the movement so well and was so inspirational. Ideas kept flowing, every movement had a different approach which Wayne was open to. Marcie really enjoyed it, and also working with Matt who he admires so much, and Yasmine Naghdi. He felt proud to have friends coming from Paris Opera who were blown away that the Royal were doing such a thing, so much versatility. It's also exciting for audience. He likes to take himself to watch different things, the extreme flip of the coin to see where dance is going. David mentioned when we interviewed Yasmine recently, she spoke about Wayne re-choreographing what he'd done in Canada. Marci said he's so confident in what he wants and so meticulously organised. You wonder sometimes how his brain works. Unlike Cinderella it may be difficult for the audience to follow. A David Lynch approach to choreography. He crafted the movement on them. He said let's exploit their technical ability and challenge them. Marcie likes to be challenged as that's how you get better. There were two different casts. He didn't see Joe Sissens to exchange views on how their interpreted the role. They are different artists with different energies, so it changes the vibe and idea of power, control, love, obsession, sadness. Jimmy was left with so much trauma, all reactions visceral and instinctive and he's a survivor and Marcie likes portraying such characters. He knows there's a lot of darkness in the story, has to grapple with that while caring for the children who were left. These futuristic ideas inspire Marcie.

Mixed Programme. There are mixed views on Pam Tanowitz amongst the audience and presumably amongst the dancers. Marcie said she likes to divide opinion. Sometimes you wonder what and why but it's crafted, although it may seem unusual to the eye. Why come on in tracksuits, why listen to the orchestra, different for the eye to what we consider beautiful or elegant. It is intriguing to work with her as she gives you a different experience in the dance world, with New York aesthetic. Crazy choreographers who did so much to further the artistic side of dance. Every step comes from an integral technical aspect, and he really respected it. Went to study with Pam and she was asking bizarre things but she's doing it from a point of complete knowledge. He really enjoyed dancing with Mayara Magri who is such a powerhouse. She gives as much as she gets. Part had already been choreographed on Will Bracewell and Anna Rose some time ago, but she made some changes. He had a hard time at the beginning as they were second cast and this was created on Will. They are very different dancers, and he could see it came from the Martha Graham technique which he'd done in Portugal. He was interested to investigate that. When he started working with her it was very nuanced and comprehensible, and he found new things and she was happy to change so he was more connected with the material as it's not natural for him to move stiffly. She danced with the Merce Cunningham company which informs her aesthetic. He has huge respect for her and she's doing something which is new and interesting which is good. In Cunningham's time people might have been horrified by his ideas on stage, and dancers struggling for hours with no joy. But it's a huge legacy as he's someone to respect and she follows on from that.

He did Alice with Viola which was interesting, being with a young 20 year old ballerina who is a firecracker and recognised things in her personality, very ambitious, intelligent, really aware of what the building means but not changing her American New York approach. You shouldn't compare dancers but there's something of Lynn Seymour about her and he thinks she'll do well in the MacMillan, darker roles, there's something intriguing about her and she's very unique. In Alice they kept saying you look too knowing, be less lingering with the kiss, less close, so obviously they had chemistry but she's more proper and English so that was their journey in the ballet.

In the summer he travelled a lot but no galas. Last season he was exhausted after a very big season, galas in Japan and China, and after Oberon he wondered if he could withstand another month so cancelled everything and took four weeks off, just stretched, kept diet clean, went home, Turkey, New York, Jacob's Pillow with a lot of shows, he did Giselle and Manon pas de deux with Anna Rose. It was difficult but it was the close of the season and he had a beautiful summer. Coming back, he was worried he'd not be in shape for Alice, but dancers punish themselves for taking time off, stamina might suffer, body might change but they are trained to be on top of everything. He's just back from Berlin seeing Swan Lake and asked the dancers about their routine. They rehearsed 12-1, if there's an evening show they have a five-hour break before. Their Swan Lakewas beautiful but he wasn't so sure about the production. They do ten Swan Lakes in the season, and five mixed programmes, and about ten Sleeping Beauties – not 30 as the Royal does. So, after a season when he didn't stop at all it was really nice to take a break. As a human it's good to connect with your family otherwise you can become estranged. It was so nice to spend a day with mum and dad, chatting, shopping and doing normal things, which are very good for the mind.

Last season ended with the Ashton programme. Marcie loves the works so much but he's fearful when he comes to perform them – with Oberon, he loves the makeup and hair and becoming that fairy creature but then he's so nervous as so much is at stake, technical feats and delivering a story and being powerful and not showing too much vulnerability, and you want Anthony Dowell to be happy. Some of his best times in the studio are with Anthony who is so inspiring, what an actor, dancer with elegant energy and he's squinting through his glasses and sees every little thing. He's so intelligent and clever. Marcie absorbs every moment like a sponge. He felt very fortunate to have Anthony there for only his second time as Oberon. He danced with Frankie Hayward – she is such a jewel, such an important dancer for their generation with unteachable qualities – taste, glamour and effortless and incredibly beautiful – he'd marry her if he could! Being on stage with her will be an elevated experience as she is very chic.

Marcie has done a lot of MacMillan and last season it was Different Drummer. Originally, he wasn't going to be in it but there were some changes in the casting. He'd not seen it since 2013 when his obsession, when he had little rehearsal, became the video room which held the Royal Ballet archives and where he watched every ballet and every cast. It looked so abstract and complicated that it stayed in his head as a difficult pas de deux, very dark with all the blood and pain, but he was 18 and didn't know the rep. Then he saw Wedding Bouquet and other obscure ballets. When he knew it was coming into the rep again, he spoke to Ed Watson who was the last person to do Different Drummer who said it was the hardest piece he'd ever done, it's so horribly hard, and you have to perform all those lifts. He thought it sounded amazing and asked Kevin if he could have a go at it. He'd always told Kevin he wanted to do Requiembut he watched Different Drummer again and thought it was so physical he wouldn't want to do it as an older dancer. Now it's one of his favourite pieces ever. He almost had a fear of plunging into that character, so tried to find more information, talked to a friend and an actor who'd been involved in the play, and he had the original dancers, Wayne Eagling and Alessandra Ferri, rehearsing him. What more could you ask? The boy dies in the ballet, you're in deepest despair for 30 minutes and there's never a chance to breathe normally. It's very horrible to put yourself in that place, and before the show he couldn't be nice. In the ballet you start smoking real cigarettes which was what MacMillan wanted.

Working with Wayne Eagling. He's fantastic, he was very rated as a dancer and commands a lot of respect and is amazingly charismatic. Marcie loves his interpretation of Romeo – a real lad, a boy of the street, not playing a princely Romeo. He's a buddy of Mercutio and Benvolio who are rascals like real people. He has a very attractive, masculine energy and with Woyzeck it's the same. He's also an amazing partner. He taught every lift which took weeks to practise, as you have to be so careful not to let your partner fall on her head, and he was so patient and could still do all these things – he was so strong and would lift Frankie around his head. Alessandra Ferri is divine. After the rehearsal Wayne would talk for ages. He loves to hear from the 60s and 70s when Monica Mason talks about the times.

Everyone wants to do the MacMillan roles because you can be your most human and use experiences from your personal life. MacMillan confronts you with issues like identity. Des Grieux is like that. Marcie's own seven-year relationship broke up and was so painful for him. He didn't have time to process it as he was injured and things became muddled but he used so much of that trying to understand his feelings towards what had happened in Manon. When he heard it would be with Frankie, he felt so lucky as she is so special. It was a great season. Different Drummer was a completely different monster, while Des Grieux is a very slow burner and gradually gets more passionate so more like real life and it's so beautiful and felt natural. MacMillan is the biggest gift within the Royal Ballet and to have Wayne and Alessandra in the studio or Monica Mason, the original mistress, who will ask what do you feel when she looks at you? She questions you which makes you a richer artist and we are lucky to have those legends in the Royal Ballet. He watched Paris Opera doing Mayerling -they are fantastic dancers but do they get it? Rudolf is another of his favourites, similar to other MacMillan's as you have to understand the characters completely, talked endlessly with Ed Watson and Alessandra and Irek Mukhamedov when he was around. You have to understand others' view on it and what shape and most of the process he was trying to survive the ballet. It's so nerve wracking as you have six women throughout the ballet and they're all ready for you and you're completely dead and you have to be so focussed and not mess them up. His debut he gave so much of his body that in the last act he was lacking minerals and his hand cramped closed. He tried to open it as had to lift Frankie above his head, he couldn't open it. He was really suffering but perhaps it gives something to the role. It's a journey but he felt the best after the role. He loves the classics and danced Swan Lakewith Mayara who really challenges him - you have to be very good next to her if not you look very bad and she's so focussed and strong she'll do a solo seven times, Black Swan seven times, White Swan seven times. Swan Lake is a classic you can identify with and encounter more humanity, identity, responsibility. Last year he did Colas at Paris Opera, a moment he wasn't expecting. He did MacMillan, then Ashton in Paris which was so special.

Christopher Wheeldon's Like Water for Chocolate. It's very hard, though falling in love with Frankie again was good, and was another moment when he didn't realise the magnitude but then read the book and appreciated what it was all about. Chris is a multi-faceted genius who does ballet for the 21st century. You can bring young and old and everyone will have a great time because he delivers on so many levels on what the world looks like today without causing you to get lost in his vision. It was a two-year creative process and you hope it will be a classic like Romeo and Juliet and Mayerling but these ballets took years to grow in popularity. He saw ABT do Like Waterin the summer and it's looking so much more connected so he can't wait to take something else from it when it's redone.

He's spent a lot of time watching videos so what would he like to see come back? Of the MacMillan rep he'd like to see Prince of the Pagodas. The design is fantastic, pas de deux incredible, craftsmanship beautiful, lighting, score, design, it's a unique experience for everyone. He'd love to see Ondine,the score isso futuristic. He wonders how Ashton who was used to beautiful melodic music immerse himself with Henze, and the design, and lead cast very poignant. He loves history and the past especially the 50s and 60s. He recently watched the video with Alexandra Ansanelli, it was beautiful, and he was very struck by the craftsmanship, even superior to some of the more popular Ashton works, the lighting design, sets and it's very dramatic and needs another go. Imagine Francesca doing this role. The score must have been quite shocking at the time but now it's so modern. Ashton was vulnerable to do something so dramatic and raw. He was talking to Iain Webb and Sarasota are going to do Wedding Bouquet and asked what the inspiration was to bring it back as it is quite obscure for our generation. Checkmate and Rake's Progress haven't been seen for a long time and he's curious to know how we could revive these pieces with our bodies of today and our imagination and make them relevant to us and bring a new sense to it as they can't be left to die. Kevin is a genius with an incredible mind and it's amazing how he captures so many moments in a season when the season seems to short for our rep.

What was it like to dance Colas with French dancers? It was a challenge. His partner was promoted on stage to etoile. Very elegant and very ballerina and poised like Yasmine. She came to London to rehearse with Lesley Collier, another fantastic jewel, after five days she left and was a completely different dancer. She was bending and touching the floor. You have to use your body so much with Ashton and it's upper body rather than the legs. He wasn't so bothered about the extension but for pure joy it's the upper body which matters. She came with the clean and precise technique, but she was enjoying herself and he had an amazing time at the Garnier. He wanted to do Ashton proud, dance as much as he could dance, smile as much as possible and do his best. It's a fantasy land, perfectly designed but it's a show and you have to go for it and he didn't take himself too seriously!

His Russian teacher was fantastic but he did struggle a bit with his identity as he was looking at the videos of these incredible Russian dancers but he didn't see himself in them. We had Carlos Acosta who was an almost impossible image of perfection . Eric Bruhn was so special. He was very good at the Bejart contemporary works and also so strong classically a combination which Marcie aspired to. Then Anthony Dowell and Carlos Acosta are big references. Pina Bausch inspires him in a different way, along with Alessandra Ferri, Baryshnikov, Makarova, Ulanova, so many inspirations.

With performing ten different productions last season, Marcie had almost forgotten The Cellist! It was another slow burner – initially he couldn't believe he was playing a second billing as a cello. Matt and Lauren would have beautiful duets and he'd be an instrument! Then he went to studio with Cathy Marston who had a vision and gave him a list of films to watch, one of which was Lolita who had a relationship with an older man, it's quite nurturing but almost voyeuristic and obsessive, and he thought interesting and perhaps the instrument has more to him. Then he started to imagine what his voice would sound like, and they had lots of cellists coming to play to them, and they felt the vibrations and the shape seemed sort of human, and when he was dancing Cathy would emphasise the importance of every movement, even if very simple, and the music is an extension of the wooden cello which offers so many possibilities. Finally, he had the most amazing time - every day exploring a new avenue, touching different things like the ear which is where you hear sound and what does it do to your head. Feelings of sadness or pure joy is all in the music and the reaction from everyone was amazing, this was on TV during the pandemic and perhaps one of his best roles which he'll do in his retirement season if he can still walk!

David gave big thanks to Marcie for the fascinating evening. He was the first of our Royal Ballet School award winners, and in fact won twice, to become a principal and said it's always a pleasure to talk to him.

Report written by Liz Bouttell and edited by Marcelino Sambé and David Bain.

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Marcelino Sambé 2024

Marcelino Sambé

Principal, The Royal Ballet

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